Video 1 of 3

I recently wrote about hell and asked for your input. I got a lot of emails. I've gone through all of them. This is the first of three videos in which I'll discuss what I've discovered and my final conclusions.

As is my tradition, I've limited this video to 6 minutes.

Clarification:

Some comments on my last post have made me realize how badly I wrote something. When I referred to people who are outside of Christianity as not having scriptures, I was thinking of people who are outside of the worldviews of organized religion. Of course I know that other religions have their own scriptures. I wrote that quickly and really just as a quick update. It was written poorly and not what I intended.

When will you hear something about the results?

I had hoped to spend some time this week working with this, but I really wasn't thinking clearly about my calendar. I leave Tuesday evening to go to Laity Lodge to lead a retreat with Jeanene and our friends Milton and Ginger Brasher-Cunningham. A number of you know Milton from his blog. The four of us will be leading a retreat through Saturday. If I can get internet access there, I'm going to post some photos, etc. during the retreat. But I'm not going to take the time I need to process all the emails. That will be a project for the week after. I'll keep the hell@RealLivePreacher.com open for a few more days to gather any more emails that come in. Then I'll wade into it all and try to make sense of it.

rlp

UPDATE: I've shut down the hell@reallivepreacher.com email address. So don't bother composing something and sending it there. I have numerous emails to go through with a good representation of a number of views.

Thanks to all who responded.

Greetings everyone,

I have received a number of very good responses to my post on hell. I'm most pleased to say that every single one of them was polite and careful. My experiences with more conservative theologians have often been unpleasant. Perhaps this is because I was always a little outside of the norm in my Baptist seminary training. I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction, expecting to receive a lot of anger and suspicion. This is not the case with these emails.

My intent is to spend some time with all of these emails next week. Lord only knows where I'll find the time for that, but that is my intent. And then I plan to summarize them and present the information here.

One word for those outside of the religious traditions of Christianity. You have things a little easier in that you have no scriptures to study. You simply think about what you might believe and choose what seems best to you. I don't resent the fact that I have to struggle with the Bible. It's a pleasure for me to do so. But struggle with it I must. It is the anchor that keeps us grounded. Each age must struggle with how to make the New Testament teachings work within its culture. So Christianity will vary from place to place and from one age to another, but Christians in 2008 struggle with the exact same scriptures that Christians in 1008 struggled with.

I would imagine that our struggle seems rather silly to you. Hell makes no sense, so why believe in it? I guess I'm asking you to be a little patient with us as we work with our traditional scriptures, using our traditional way of study. We call it exegesis - taking meaning out of the text - though in all honesty, no one can avoid reading our cultural beliefs into the text. Perhaps the most dangerous form of this is when we read the cultural norms and desires of the current Church into the text. The dance between our desire for exegesis and the unavoidable prejudices of our culture is itself a mysterious process. The process should teach us great humility, though it often leads to anger. That is heartbreaking to me.

I am reminded of something that my dear friend, now deceased, Rabbi Yonah* once told me. I asked him if he thought I should become Jewish. He said, "Heaven forbid. You don't want to be Jewish. I have to abide by 613 commandments in my daily life. Currently you have only the Gentile requirements of your tradition. God is obviously using Christianity in this world. I would stay with Christianity."

And that was that. He did not complain about his greater religious obligations, and he always sought ways to celebrate my tradition of faith. I always loved the way Yonah stayed faithful to his tradition without pressuring me to join him.

So while we take a look at the scriptures together next week, I invite you who are not within our tradition to watch if you wish. I intend to make the discussion open. And if our struggle with the New Testament doesn't make sense to you, perhaps you can think of us the way I thought of Rabbi Yonah. Our arms are open. Our discussion is open as well. You are welcome to watch how we do this.

rlp

*Yes, that is "Jonah" from the book and my early essays. I changed his name back when I was anonymous. He's dead now, and there is no reason not to use his real name.

UPDATE: I've shut down the hell@reallivepreacher.com email address. So don't bother composing something and sending it there. I have numerous emails to go through with a good representation of a number of views.

Thanks to all who responded.

I have begun a study of the what the Bible has to say about hell. I’ve read all four gospels and written down every passage that seems relevant. I have looked up every reference to “hell” and “hades” in the New Testament and read them. I’ve read the book of Revelation to see what it has to say. And I’ve looked up some other passages. My intent is to continue studying the rest of the New Testament until I feel I know everything it has to say about hell.

Maybe you can help me. I want to know why you believe what you believe about hell.

Hell was a serious part of the religious tradition I was raised in - evangelical Christianity. It was just part of the deal. You either believed in hell or you were some kind of liberal who was just too much of a boo-hoo crybaby to accept hard Biblical truths. As a liberal, it was said that you trusted your heart and your feelings more than holy scripture. And that was said to be a very bad thing, because once you start letting your own ideas and feelings determine your beliefs, you’ve basically invented your own religion.

Now there are three basic components to what might be called the traditional view of hell. And you have to believe in all three of them to hold that traditional view.

First, and somewhat obviously, you have to believe that hell is real. There has to be a literal hell, a place where certain people go to be punished. There are two schools of thought among those who believe in a literal hell. There are the actual flames and brimstone people, who believe sinners will be burned slowly and excruciatingly in hell. This is an unthinkably horrible notion, but they believe that’s what the Bible says, so they have to accept it no matter how terrible it is. And there are the “it’s probably just some kind of sad and lonely separation from God” people. The people who believe in flames tend to look down on the separation from God people, who seem a little liberal. Not liberal enough to reject the whole idea of hell, but certainly liberal enough to be suspect.

Second, you have to believe that non-Christians are the ones who are headed for hell. It is often a little surprising when people find out that in traditional evangelical theology, it is not bad people who will go to hell. Hell will be filled with people who did not become Christians. And this is true even if they never heard of Christianity. Yes, it is believed that even a young woman raised in a primitive culture in an isolated jungle will go to hell if she dies without becoming a Christian. That’s why we have to get missionaries over there, chop chop. To save her and others like her. True, our arrival will destroy her delicate culture and expose her people to deadly diseases and other Western things that will undoubtedly be harmful, but all other concerns pale when compared to eternal torment, do they not?

Third, to have a traditional belief in hell, you have to believe that hell is eternal. That’s what hell-believing Christians say. Once you go to hell, it’s forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. Forever. And ever. Planets will be born and die while you are in hell. Solar systems will spin into and out of existence. Galaxies will slowly grind through each other and twist outward into the expanding universe. And there you will be, hopefully just bored out of your skull, but if those who believe in literal flames are right...well, I don’t even know how to think about something like that.

Evangelicals have no way around this horror. Catholics invented the idea of Purgatory, which is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is a temporary place of punishment. If, as Robin Williams said, you had to smoke a turd in Purgatory for 1000 years, that would be awful, but at least there would be an end in sight. Evangelicals, who claim to limit themselves to what’s in the Bible, do not have such an easy out.

So that’s hell in a nutshell. That’s what we were taught. It is a literal place where you are sent. You are sent there for not being a Christian. And once you are condemned to hell, it is forever. There are no second chances.

Now let’s make a turn and talk about something else. One thing is for sure - you wouldn’t believe in hell unless the Bible was so clear about it that you were left with no choice. No one really WANTS there to be a hell, right? Please tell me no one wants hell to be real. Because if you are the sort of person who likes the idea of hell, you might be the devil yourself. While conservative seminarians discuss whether or not the devil exists, liberal seminarians are discussing whether or not you really exist.

If you ask me, a person would have to be pretty sure of himself before he would tell people they were going to hell. If you say that hell exists, and it is for non-Christians, and it is fire, and it is forever, you better be sure of yourself. Because I can’t imagine a worse blasphemy if it’s not true. That would really make God angry, wouldn’t you think? You running around and ruining God’s reputation like that.

It’s funny - hell Christians always act like we who don’t think everyone is going to burn in hell are the ones taking a chance. “Uh oh, you’re getting liberal. Aren’t you afraid God is going to be really mad at you for not believing in hell?” Well, maybe. Maybe I’ll smoke a turd in some back closet of heaven for being too nice. But if you’re wrong, you and people like you have trashed God’s reputation for 2,000 years.

I think I’ll take my chances with the liberals.

THE CHALLENGE:

Okay, so here's the deal: if you believe in hell, I want you to help us understand why. I invite anyone who believes that non-Christians are going to an eternal hell to make your case. We’re going to play by your rules too. Bible arguments only. Don’t explain why you think there should be a hell. Don’t tell us that your preacher told you there is a hell. Show us in the scriptures you say you love so dearly.

Because if you’re talking about hell, you better damn well be able to open your holy book and show us why. And if you can’t...well, maybe you shouldn’t be talking so much.

THE GROUND RULES

1. Email only - We’re not going to slug this out in the comments with crazy people dropping in crazy stuff and other people getting pissed off and replying. ANY COMMENT LEFT ON THIS POST THAT MAKES A CASE FOR OR AGAINST HELL WILL BE DELETED OR EDITED. ANY COMMENT THAT IS ABUSIVE OR DISRESPECTFUL OR FLIPPANT WILL BE DELETED OR EDITED. This is a serious inquiry, and I want those who respond, whatever they believe, to be treated with respect.

Make your case and send it to me by email. Send it to hell@RealLivePreacher.com. That email address will function while we’re engaging in this exercise.

2. New Testament only. You can’t drag verses from the Hebrew scriptures about Sheol into this discussion. Sheol isn’t hell. Even conservative scholars agree on that. If you are building a serious Christian theology, you have to use the New Testament.

3. You can’t base your argument on statements like "he will be cast into the outer darkness." You can use those kinds of statements to a certain extent, but you can’t build your whole case with them. You can’t get your ideas about hell from Paradise Lost and bad television, then read those ideas back into an ambiguous phrase that could mean all sorts of things. You need to make a good, solid New Testament case.

4. You may need to answer any opposing scriptures that I send back to you. If you send me one passage that seems to suggest something, and I email back 10 opposing passages that are clear and right from the mouth of Jesus, you have not made a good case.

5. Remember, you need to provide scriptural evidence for all three elements of hell.

a. You have to give scriptural evidence that hell exists.

b. You have to give scriptural evidence that it will be non-Christians who will end up there.

c. You have to give scriptural evidence that hell is forever.

I’ll tell you right now, b and c will be tough for you. And of all three, b is the most critical, in my opinion. Imagine how embarrassed you will be if you show us that your own scriptures say there is a literal hell, but you are the one going there for your lack of love, compassion, and care for the poor.

I’m just saying...

5. The last rule is for me. Serious responses will be treated with respect. I have no desire to laugh at anyone or poke fun. I’m in earnest. I want to know how you justify your beliefs. I will feel free to post anything that is sent to me, but I won’t use your name if you don’t want me to. If I’m not satisfied that you made a good case, I simply won’t post it. You’ll have to trust me on this.

Bring me your scriptures. I want to know the truth. I’ve been reading the New Testament, looking for the truth about hell. I’m still doing my study, but maybe you can help me. Serious cases made by a serious students of the New Testament will be posted here. And I’ll invite you to come by and converse with us in the comments if you like. Or if you wish to remain anonymous, that’s okay too.

I have my reasons for doing this. I think it’s high time we got this whole thing out in the open.

Real Live Preacher