Bravo, RLP. Listening to these talks over the last week has been inspiring and challenging in equal measure.

here's an idea about transcription, but might take a bit to get going, so may not be worth it - http://waxy.org/2008/09/audio_transcription_with_mechanical_turk/

I'm really challenged by these videos. I left fundamentalism behind awhile back (as best as one can), but it is still hard for me to challenge certain assumptions like you do here.

(About transcription... if you can export the audio to mp3 or wav, there are several options out there that aren't too expensive.)

Thank you for posting these videos, and for sharing with us the efforts of your study. It is really making me think.

Now it's time to go back and listen to all four of your videos together. I agree with your conclusion that we spend far too much time trying to figure out who is and who isn't 'going to hell'. It may be just as erroneous, however, to adopt a 'live and let live' philosophy towards those who don't know Christ. (Although I confess that I am much more prone to let people's faith be between them and God than I am to 'win' them for Christ.)

This has been beautifully affirmative for me. This is the view that I came to of Hell through my own reading and prayer on the subject, as well, though you did provide me with a number of scriptural references to look into. I believe that the idea of Christ's love and compassion is given short shrift compared to that of God's righteous justice.

To address what somebody said in the comments of the previous video, I do not at all see a problem with accepting God's mercy and God's justice both. I, however, cannot accept that one in any way limits the other's activities. God's justice is that we must live with the consequences of our actions; God's mercy is that we always have a chance to forgive and be forgiven.

In Peace Profound,
Nicholas

I just wanted to state that I, a conservative evangelical Christian, agree with everything you said except when it comes to hell. I think we can have a concrete belief in hell and still approach evangelism the way you laid out. Hell doesn't have to be a part of evangelism, but relationship must be.

Somehow I get the impression that you don't think a belief in hell is compatible with your style of evangelism. I could be wrong. I think the major question is being overlooked though. What really is the purpose of evangelism if the reality of hell is nonexistent? Why not be like many other religions (Zoroastrian, Shinto, etc...) who don't believe converting others is necessary? If you are right, then I have no reason to tell people about Jesus. They'll make it no matter what I do or don't do. For that matter, I guess I'll make it no matter what I do or don't do. So why not live for the party that life offers?

But, more-or-less seriously, to people locked in despair, hope burns. Heaven above, Hell below gives people a place in the world, something they can understand. Many people would rather believe in Dante's hell, eternal punishment, all that, than risk the difficult tasks of loving their neighbors and sowing what they would like to reap. And the "ravening wolves" know it. It's damnably easy to control people through that fear. Perhaps this is why Jesus populated his hell with pious hypocrites.

Caw!

RLP -

Cool - you just summarized my beliefs about hell in 9 minutes. Not that you would have changed my mind if you didn't, but it's nice that someone with a seminary degree read the NT and came to the same conclusion I did.

Pastor Brian -

I spent most of my life in the evangelical church, and frankly, I've never understood the argument that you are making about hell. Are you saying that the only reason you would be motivated to treat other people well or care about them or try to do good is to avoid hell? That the only reason you would have any concern for all the people - who you presumably believe are made in the image of God - who are suffering in hellish ways right now is to save yourself from eternal damnation?

I don't really worry about "evangelism" per se these days (which is a relief, since I was always pretty bad at the evangelical version of it), but I certainly talk about my spiritual journey with friends - and I would think that if your faith is important to you, that at some point in a relationship, it would naturally come up. I'm actually far more likely to talk about my spiritual journey now than I was when I was evangelical - precisely because now I don't have to worry that I'm not doing my Christian duty if I don't drag hell into the conversation.

Clapping wildly and wishing that I could whistle loudly through my fingers.

I've really enjoyed these videos, not only because it's a pleasure to listen to you talk (though it is) but also because what you're saying here is so powerful for me. I don't think I had any idea that so much of this hell stuff is external to Scripture. Thank you; you've given me a new set of ways of responding to these teachings, and that's really valuable.

I wish we could have you and Jeneane over for dinner tonight, to share more of our stories and deepen our relationship over the breaking of bread and sharing of wine. :-) One of these days, maybe.

I applaud your fine effort. A few things stand out to me in your study and give me good cause ponder my path in this world(correct me if have misunderstood): - It would seem possible that believers may be the ones at risk of the outer darkness, not those "outside the faith." - There is no definitive evidence of the duration of hell, especially of it being eternal - Our best way of serving Jesus to follow his example of interacting with others, and also that of his first disciples as they moved out into the world to share him with others.

And one aside to Pastor Brian, wouldn't there be many reasons to share Jesus' life-changing presence in one's life? A few examples; His offering of a comforter and advocate to be with us in this world, the path to a true kingdom of love, justice, mercy and compassion for all people. Along with the knowledge that we are forgiven, that we can change and be accepted by our creator, should we choose to do so. To me it seems that if we become convinced we have our "get out of hell card", that we then do very little improving of our human nature. For me there are many things that Jesus offers of much more significance than an avoidance of punishment, many others seem to share these same feelings.

These were great, and I'm planning on passing them on. But I can't help playing devil's (God's?) advocate -- what about the parts where Jesus says "I'm the way, the truth and the light. The only way to God is through me." That's the passage I've always heard cited as proof that the only way to Heaven is to convert to Christianity. And there's this premise that says if you're not going to Heaven, you're going to Hell. It's a sort of syllogism -- Only Christians go to heaven / All those who do not go to Heaven go to Hell / Therefore all those who are not Christian go to hell.

I think it would be interesting to know what exactly the New Testament says about Heaven and who is going there. Otherwise this discussion feels a little incomplete. In particular, I think it's fascinating when you hint that Revelations talks about a "second death"... Is it possible that there is a third option, neither heaven nor hell, but simply ceasing to exist? If not, do you think the Bible admits the possibility of non-Christians going to Heaven? Where's the flaw in the syllogism?

I had a huge Facebook conversation with a bunch of people I don't really know about hell once. And I kind of ended up coming to the same conclusion you did. (I'm a Christian and a churchgoer, and I was "defending the faith" in this Facebook conversation.) Which ended up making me friends with the non-Christian in the group and left me in utter disagreement with one of the Christians.

Here's how I sum it up: We're citizens of Heaven, and we're called to spread that Kingdom. We're not citizens of hell, so who cares about that anyway? Hell is not the point. It has no impact on how I live my life. But the Kingdom of Heaven...now THAT has an impact on my life! So I don't really give a crap about hell.

I like the question you ask here Gordon. How do we treat those outside our tradition is indeed a more important question than what decision they will make about their own faith journey. We are asked to "take care of our own doorstep" before worrying about others.

I happen to be one of those conservative evangelicals you speak of who believe in a literal Hell and all. I do hope, however, that I do not necessarily act like or completely think like the same. I always enjoy your new perspectives on ideas held from history and tradition of the Christian faith.

I do not wish to argue the conclusions you have come to as I have not studied this particular doctrine enough to feel comfortable doing so but I did wish to post a question either to you or those more educated and better read than I in your readership. In I Corinthians chapter 9 Paul speaks about "becoming all things to all men" so that in the end he might save some. What is Paul attempting to save some men from? It seems fairly obvious that he feels there is something to try and keep people from that would be undesirable. What would this be absense a Hell-like afterlife? Just a question to pose. Thank you.

as a gay man, i'd like to point out that many extreme fundamentalists don't just consider their judgements to people of different faiths but those like me as well.

"hell" is seems, is often used as some kind of grim hammer to hold over the heads of those who don't adhere to some narrow Christian viewpoint.

as one who believes God is a figure of love, it's hard for me to imagine he or she would punish their children to an eternal place of punishment. to believe otherwise does not, IMHO, recognize the extremity of love and forgiveness a greater being would have.

expanding one's viewpoint might be one way of becoming closer to God indeed.

Before I get to my primary thought, I wanted to put in a plug for Surprised By Hope by N.T. Wright, in case you hadn't read it. It's a book about the afterlife as Wright sees it based on what he reads in the NY, and according to him, it's not going to be what we Christians tend to say it is, particularly in regards to things like floating on clouds, singing all the time, or "streets of gold." It's a very good read.

But here's the other thing I wanted to say, or ask: Why, in passages like Matthew 10, does Jesus sound urgent when He's sending his disciples out to go and spread the gospel? In fact, it's the only time He ever really sounds urgent. Why is Paul sounding a little urgent about evangelism in Romans 10:11-15?

I'm not asking these questions as though they are proof that your conclusions are wrong. I think you're right, and that Christianity isn't meant to be all about who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell (see my most recent blog post), but I do wonder why Jesus seemed so concerned about hurrying His disciples along so that they could go spread the Gospel if there wasn't some kind of eternal ramification to what they were doing.

Perhaps Paul, in speaking of his urgent desire to speak about Jesus Christ to as many people as possible, is saying he hopes to save souls for life--and from non-life. Recall the references to hell in Matthew 13 (I don't remember, rlp, whether or not you said the word "gehenna" or "hadou" is used here). In this case the souls cast into "hell" are metaphorically sent into a furnace to be consumed. The image is like that of burning the leaves in fall (as people did 50 years ago before they got greener and made arrangements to compost them). The idea is not that the weeds are to be tortured but rather that they are to be trashed--burnt to nothing. Could it be that Jesus suggests that our souls die if not nurtured in Jesus' way of life? First they get consumed in petty details or grievances or resentments, and then they circle through these problems without solution, and eventually they burn out, exhausted in the futility of their concerns. Haven't we all met people (sometimes we see them in the mirror) who at one time had a lovely sparkle but who, later, were warped and diminished by their experiences, so that the promise they once showed doesn't get fulfilled? It seems these are the ones Paul wants to "save."

Thank you so much for making these videos. Unfortunately for me I was one of those young, vulnerable, impressionable teenagers who was 'fished' by the evangelical Xtians and indoctrinated with the ideas of hell, and boy did I know about it. I believe i spent more time in that place than i could ever imagine in an afterlife.

The person of Jesus didn't need to use scare tactics to draw people to Him. He was fierce with the pharisee's and the scribes, but loving and compassionate with those lost in error who needed guidance to find the spiritual life and therefore the strength needed to experience freedom.

I believe i can shed some light on the concept of a judgement/punishment/correction and 'consuming fire of the ages.' Before i found my faith i was utterly lost. i mean 100% desolated. i went through an experience that can only be described as my own personal consuming fire of all ages. It was so bad i thought that my entire community was also suffering it, all because of me (yes, i was having a nervous breakdown by this point, praise God that I got the appropriate medical help.) I think that this correction and straightening experience is what we go through here in this life in order to bring us back to God and the correct pathway. Hell, as i understand it, is experienced here on earth when we really are going through judgement experiences based on the choices we have made in our lives. Mercy is what is extended to us when we choose the right path. Then we enter the Kingdom of Heaven, which is eternal.

I thought you might find the following links useful and interesting. Apologies I'm not there in person to explain them to you.

www.bahai.org
www.bahaiprayers.org

Thanks again for the good work. I hope your message reaches the conciousness of many, many people.

One Love!!

What about a close loved one who has stated they have no use for God? What about the time I once was scared I was going to hell? You can't totally take the question off the table. If it is enough for any one individual to be concerned about then it is enough for us to try to help them answer that question. I agree that we need to chill out and learn to trust God with everything. You are also right in stating that others need us to focus more on this life. However, you talk like finding the truth on the issue of our final destination will only lead to arrogance. Partial truth can lead to arrogance but the whole truth will not lead a heaven bound person to look down on those going to hell. It will lead them to compassion and if their is any boasting it will be a "boasting in the Lord"; who is the only reason we are headed toward such a place. It's true that many christians are too metaphysically minded to be any earthly good but have you gone too far in the other direction?

Beautiful

After watching the videos and reading the commentary here, I have so many things rolling around in my little brain. What about the chasm, which couldn't be crossed, mentioned in Luke (with a mention of Hades), the rich man and Lazarus? What is "true" and what is a story given to us as an example of how we should treat others.

Thanks again for this entire series.

It might be too late to jump into the conversation, but I'll try anyway. It doesn't seem to me like you painted an accurate picture of Paul in Athens. It sounded like you were saying that he accepted and affirmed their beliefs, and that he was only sharing his beliefs in order to have a discussion, rather than as an attempt to convert them. But when I read the text I get the impression that he was trying to convert them.

Verse 16, "While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was deeply distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and also in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there."

I think him being deeply distressed at the presence of idols -- and even Luke's use of the term "idols" rather than "gods" -- indicates that he had a problem with what their religion. (I'm assuming Paul and Luke held similar views here). It also says that he was arguing with the Athenians about their beliefs.

Verses 29-30, "...we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

Here it seems like Paul is dismissing their idols as being man-made objects, and asking them to convert to his real god, who created and sustains everything (v24-25).

I'm open to the possibility that I'm reading contemporary ideas into the text, and that there are translation issues, etc, but it seems to me that the overall gist of the passage is that, while he treated them respectfully, he thought there was something wrong with their beliefs and wanted them to change.