Submitted by rlp on Fri, 08/15/2008 - 08:39.
UPDATE: I've shut down the hell@reallivepreacher.com email address. So don't bother composing something and sending it there. I have numerous emails to go through with a good representation of a number of views.
Thanks to all who responded.
Greetings everyone,
I have received a number of very good responses to my post on hell. I'm most pleased to say that every single one of them was polite and careful. My experiences with more conservative theologians have often been unpleasant. Perhaps this is because I was always a little outside of the norm in my Baptist seminary training. I tend to have a knee-jerk reaction, expecting to receive a lot of anger and suspicion. This is not the case with these emails.
My intent is to spend some time with all of these emails next week. Lord only knows where I'll find the time for that, but that is my intent. And then I plan to summarize them and present the information here.
One word for those outside of the religious traditions of Christianity. You have things a little easier in that you have no scriptures to study. You simply think about what you might believe and choose what seems best to you. I don't resent the fact that I have to struggle with the Bible. It's a pleasure for me to do so. But struggle with it I must. It is the anchor that keeps us grounded. Each age must struggle with how to make the New Testament teachings work within its culture. So Christianity will vary from place to place and from one age to another, but Christians in 2008 struggle with the exact same scriptures that Christians in 1008 struggled with.
I would imagine that our struggle seems rather silly to you. Hell makes no sense, so why believe in it? I guess I'm asking you to be a little patient with us as we work with our traditional scriptures, using our traditional way of study. We call it exegesis - taking meaning out of the text - though in all honesty, no one can avoid reading our cultural beliefs into the text. Perhaps the most dangerous form of this is when we read the cultural norms and desires of the current Church into the text. The dance between our desire for exegesis and the unavoidable prejudices of our culture is itself a mysterious process. The process should teach us great humility, though it often leads to anger. That is heartbreaking to me.
I am reminded of something that my dear friend, now deceased, Rabbi Yonah* once told me. I asked him if he thought I should become Jewish. He said, "Heaven forbid. You don't want to be Jewish. I have to abide by 613 commandments in my daily life. Currently you have only the Gentile requirements of your tradition. God is obviously using Christianity in this world. I would stay with Christianity."
And that was that. He did not complain about his greater religious obligations, and he always sought ways to celebrate my tradition of faith. I always loved the way Yonah stayed faithful to his tradition without pressuring me to join him.
So while we take a look at the scriptures together next week, I invite you who are not within our tradition to watch if you wish. I intend to make the discussion open. And if our struggle with the New Testament doesn't make sense to you, perhaps you can think of us the way I thought of Rabbi Yonah. Our arms are open. Our discussion is open as well. You are welcome to watch how we do this.
rlp
*Yes, that is "Jonah" from the book and my early essays. I changed his name back when I was anonymous. He's dead now, and there is no reason not to use his real name.
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Hey Gordon, I hope you
Hey Gordon, I hope you redact and post a good bit of your dialog with any serious theologian. I was trying to write something for you but I end up just going to various webpages that cite all the verses about hell or life after death, the Lazarus/Dives parable, sheep/goats, the parable of the Kingdom of heaven being like the rich man giving a feast that ends with folks wailing and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness, lakes of fire, and all that.
That's how I was raised and I don't WANT to believe it; but I'm stuck saying "I don't believe it 'cause I don't like it", and that's hardly good theology. (If I didn't believe stuff just 'cause it didn't make sense, I'd have to be a secular humanist. ;)
I'd like someone to go through the usual citations verse by verse and explain what the original greek/etc. was referring to, why it got translated that way, what got added in the 4th century, etc. I suppose I should go read a few books on the topic; I'm sure there's a history of Hell out there somewhere...
Incredible
Though I haven't had time to participate in the discussion, Gordon, I am grateful you broached the topic and I'm looking forward to reading more about it. Glad to know that the majority of the discussion has been beneficial.
don't forget literary theory
Your comments here about exegesis always remind me of my training in literary theory. There are different ways to think about reading--formalism, reader response, traditional emphasis on the life of the author, feminism, post-colonialism, and so many other -isms it makes me glad those days are behind me.
Which always reminds me, when we read the Bible, we need to remember which set of assumptions we're bringing with us. Are we interested in forms (formalism)? Are we interested in how we find ourselves in the text (reader-response)? Do we pay special attention to the role of women?
I get frustrated with people who say I just read the Bible--as if the Bible is some magical book that operates under different rules than all other books.
Sure. We agree that the Bible is Scripture. But to engage it differently than we engage other books is to dismiss God's wisdom in choosing to communicate so much content through that particular form. (Oops. Just revealed my tendency toward formalism.)
Thanks for letting me ramble.
Speaking for the
Speaking for the nonbelievers (since you know, they asked me to), it's not necessarily as simple as just not believing because it doesn't make sense. For some of us, very little makes unequivocal sense, so the trick is to think productively about things, not just reject or accept.
Hell with pitchforks, no, I really doubt it. Hell as fairy tale, too easy to be useful. Hell as a concept intended to convey some aspect of our existence, falling somewhere on the spectrum between metaphor and reality... now there's something to be excavated, whether you're a believer or not. Even if you only accept it as a major image of a myth, myth is a manifestation of deeper things, whether spiritual or psychological. It's possible to be very interested in those things, and to believe the myths might have something to teach us about them, without believing in the literal reality of the images.
I can struggle with the meaning of your beliefs even if they're not mine, because I think we're all trying to understand the same things. (And also because the New Testament is one of the major touchpoints--consciously or not--for many of the people around me.)
I hope this didn't violate your comment guidelines.
" You have things a little
" You have things a little easier in that you have no scriptures to study."
Surely you know that many, if not most, of the world's great religions do indeed have scriptures to study.
The precise way in which they are studied, and the degree to which they are definitive for the believing student, may vary ~ but that's true in Christianity too, right?
Pascale's Wager
That was my thought too -
That was my thought too - I'm sure the various ghitas and surely the Koran count as scriptures, among other things...
Yeah, I wrote that badly. I
Yeah, I wrote that badly. I meant people who do not have a religion at all. Secular people who search and find their own beliefs from wherever they wish. I see now that I didn't make that clear.
It’s very good and refreshing news...
...that the respondents have kept things civil. Given the potential controversy of the subject, this is very good and refreshing news. Thanks so much. I’m looking forward to seeing the results.
I share many of the
I share many of the sentiments already posted. I am really excited about hearing more on the subject and think it is wonderful to take it on. I also have a tremendous amount of respect for you RLP.
I'm first met with an insatiable hunger to know more- not just on this subject, but many others. I find myself overwhelmed and intimidated though. I am finally to the point where I know I can no longer continue to rely so faithfully on what others have to say. I have to dig into the scriptures and seek for the answers myself. The problem is, I really don't know how. So I don't. I don't know how to study the bible. Years in church, and I don't feel as if I've ever been taught. There are so many helpful suggestions I suppose but most of them float over my head. Well, run me over is more like it.
Any suggestions for someone like me? How can I learn to be a student of the Bible and all of the other "relevant" literature? The question of what is relevant is a whole other issue that is entirely overwhelming. Where do I begin?
if time allows i'd suggest
if time allows i'd suggest that you audit a course at a local seminary. you generally don't have to be accepted in the program, but it can be a little pricey. it is great to study along with future pastors of all ages, many of whom are already serving. i'd suggest an intro course in NT or OT.
a cheaper alternative (and a good place to start) would be luke johnson's "writings of the new testament." it's thick, but well-researched and the language is accessible.
How to read the Bible
You might start by looking in the upper left corner of this page under the MAIN MENU. RLP did some videos on this. ;)
"One word for those outside
"One word for those outside of the religious traditions of Christianity. You have things a little easier in that you have no scriptures to study."
LOL!
Ummm...apparently, you've never heard of the Koran, the Torah, the Tao de Ching, etc, etc, etc, etc.
As I said in an earlier
As I said in an earlier comment, of course I know of other scriptures. I meant people who stand outside of religious traditions altogether.
No scriptures...
Well, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. Obviously you are a well-read, culturally sensitive person. So I'm just going to take the inquisitive stance. What was on your mind when you said "no scriptures"? You must have been thinking about something in particular.
Oh, and to Mark G., I love that comment about the Bible being a book. A marvelous book, an inspiring book, an intriguing and powerful book. But a book just the same. Great observation.
From my outsider's viewpoint...
Most outsiders who think about such things don't think the idea of Hell is silly--we think it's cruel and wrong-headed. It contradicts other parts of the New Testament: if god loves us, why is he threatening us with eternal torture? As if that were not enough, there simply isn't that much on Hell in the bible, not even in Tanakh. Apparently Christian teachers have made a big deal of it because they really want to threaten people, which makes us think a lot less of Christianity. Feh. More food for us corvids!
&, more seriously, will be interested in what you write on the subject, when it comes around.
Hi, I'm just visiting here
Hi, I'm just visiting here again for the first time in ages and I'm fascinated to see where this discussion goes, I'll be coming back regularly now! Excellent timing on my part, I guess! :-)
I don't have anything theological to add, but I feel compelled to mention that I am reminded of a couple of guys I knew my Freshman year of college. Both were raised Catholic and had attended Catholic high schools. In a late-night discussion, one mentioned he didn't believe in God. The other agreed. I said I didn't believe in Hell. Both of them about fell out of their chairs in amazement. I still wonder how these guys who claimed not to believe in God could be so convinced of the existence of Hell.
Looking forward to the follow-up
A month later, and I'm still on the edge of my seat about the follow-up to these emails, and the impending discussion. I hope to see them posted soon!
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