Submitted by rlp on Mon, 03/24/2008 - 15:59.
The first involved me traveling to Rome and, among other things, dragging the pope down a flight of stairs. That fantasy could not be published, though I was tempted.
My Second Pope Fantasy:
“Yes sir, I’d like a private audience with his immanence, Pope John, or Leo, or Bene...Benny, Steve. Whatever the current name is.”
“Yes I know that, but it is MY fantasy, so you’ll usher me right in won’t you? That’s right. Thank you.”
The pope is sitting on a high throne, so high that his feet can’t even touch the ground. I’m intrigued by his pope hat and pope robes and little pope slippers, swinging gently back and forth.
“So you baptized a Muslim?”
“Yes.”
“And you chose to do this on Easter weekend, right in St. Peter’s Basilica, right in front of the whole world?”
“Yes.”
“You bragged about it, basically, right? You did it in a way to maximize the exposure and make world news?”
“Yes.”
The thing that amazes me about the pope is that he never really changes his facial expression. It’s like all the life has been sucked out of him. His lips move. I wonder if anything else does.
“You are aware, are you not, of the current climate of religious tension in the world? You do know that what you did infuriated thousands of Muslims around the globe.”
“Yes.”
“And this man is in danger now, correct? He and his family will have had death threats.”
“Yes.”
“Why would you do something like that? Okay, so the guy was never a practicing Muslim and wanted to become a Christian. Fine, that’s his right. But why make his baptism a public spectacle at this delicate time in history?”
“Yes,” he said gently, peering at me over his spectacles. “What can I do for you, my son?”
“Um, did you hear anything I just said?”
The pope slowly lifted his hand
“Benidicticus Liberonday Ulfimiquam Peridontitus Loonday.”
He finished speaking but his lips were still moving. I flattened my palm and passed it back and forth in front of his eyes. No reaction.
“Sweet Jesus, even my fantasy pope doesn’t seem to know what the hell he’s doing.”
rlp
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Hmm. I don't really know
Hmm. I don't really know what to think about this. I'm Catholic, myself, but I don't think I should be offended. Apparently it was the publicity that displeased you and not the act of baptism, so that doesn't really have anything to do with the Catholic faith.
I still kind of am though. I guess we're just pretty touchy about stuff like this. Humans, I mean, not Catholics in particular.
Maybe it was the dragging down the stairs thing. Hm. This bears thinking about.
Giggle
I hadn't heard about this before reading your reaction. But, OMG, someone really needs to force EVERYONE in the Vatican to live in the real world for a week or so, with no safety net whatsoever.
And thanks for posting both or your fantasies: one in full, one in excerpt. ;-)
He's been under a death
He's been under a death threat since 2003. They wanted to kill him when he was a muslim, for saying thing they didn't like. I say he knew full well what he was doing, and exactly what the consequences could be, yet had the courage to go ahead anyway.
Welcome to the family.
Boo to this! You should no
Boo to this! You should no better G. It is the right of any man to worship as he pleases, and that includes baptism.
Who cares if some zealous Muslims were offended. Let them be offended, let it burn and ache in their hearts until they cannot stand it anymore. Let that pain burn them and burn them, from the inside out, until the conflagration has seared away all of their arrogance, and their fear.
Boo on you G. You're an enabler.
You're scary. Wow. It's not
You're scary. Wow.
It's not the baptism that bothers me. It's the choice to publicly fan flames of religious anger. And it's not educated Muslims that, by and large, will be angered. There was no reason to go out of his way to do this. None.
Enabler? You're crazy.
And it's not the baptism I
And it's not the baptism I am defending. I don't give a shit about a baptism, or a communion or any of the other insane bullshit religious people make up to get themselves high on god.
To me, this is exactly like the Mohammad cartoons from a couple years back. The reaction is, "ooh ooh, don't offend the muslims they might hurt someone, they might get offended."
Fuck 'em, fuck the fascists. To be sure, the pope is a fascist too, but no one complains when Catholics are made light of.
Might behoove some to do a
Might behoove some to do a little homework before attempting a besmirching.
I'm just saying:
Late in Holy Week, Osama bin Laden called Pope Benedict XVI the leader of “a new crusade” against Islam and vowed retribution against the European Union for publishing Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad.
Reuters religion editor Tom Heneghan had a fascinating look at the cluelessness of some in the media:
France 24 television interrupted my Easter lunch en famille to interview me about this and their main question was whether it was a response to Osama bin Laden’s threat against the pope. That assumes a U.S. campaign-style readiness to react that is miles or centuries away from the way the Vatican works. Easter is the traditional time to baptise adult converts. Allam had to go through a long period of study before being accepted for baptism. Benedict had to know about this at least several weeks ago. In his article in Corriere (see below), Allam mentions a meeting with Benedict where he told him of his intention to convert and the pope said he would gladly baptise him. But Allam does not mention the date.
What does it say about some in the media that they might think this conversion was a last minute attempt to respond to bin Laden? Still, it is definitely worth noting that the Vatican didn’t back off from baptism plans to satisfy a bloodthirsty terrorist, as these stories, including this one that led with angle, did.
Multinational corporations
Multinational corporations es totus idem eadem idem.
(Yeah, that was an online translation. All I remember from Latin is Amo Amas Amat, and something about an agricola magna and a parva puella. And I'm guessing it wouldn't help with peridontitus loonday anyway.)
2 strikes for the Pope in the Muslim vs Christain ball game
Really pissing someone off is not the best way to get their attention and solve problems. Just look at Jesus. They took him out and nailed him to a cross. Of course, he had Daddy to bail him out. I doubt Pope Benedict can count on that.
You know, I'm Catholic, and
You know, I'm Catholic, and I try to be as respectful as possible towards other denominations. So why do you feel the need to slam mine? I think I have a decent sense of humor, but I really don't see it here.
And I have no problem with
And I have no problem with Catholicism. None. I have a problem with one man's decision to do something that is fanning the flames of global religious intolerance and anger.
PLEASE, did he HAVE to do this publicly in such a way? Please also note that I said in this piece that the man has a right to be a Christian if he wants to. But if you or I were to be baptized, it wouldn't be on the national news.
So don't pin any anti-Catholic sentiment on me. That's not the point here.
was there really an
was there really an origional pope fantasy? What sparked that one?
hmm.
“Pastor G, you are aware, are you not, of the current climate of religious tension in the world between Protestants and Catholics? You do know that what you wrote may have infuriated hundreds of Roman Catholics around the globe?”
:)
Just a follow-up. I'm angry.
Just a follow-up.
I'm angry. This piece shows it. I'm angry because religious zeal and the need to convert people has driven the three religions of Abraham to be at war with each other. WE MUST STOP trying to convert each other. And the leaders of our religions should be leading us there. But at LEAST the leaders of our religions should not be fanning flames and going out of their way to do things that make it worse.
Your anger is more than a tad self-centered.
Have you read anything about the man's conversion? Have you looked into the so called timing at all?
You're being quite the ignoramus here. It's unbecoming.
Well, enlighten us. Tell us
Well, enlighten us. Tell us why this man needed to be publicly baptized in front of the cameras on Easter weekend with such pageantry. Perhaps I am ignorant of something. There's no shame in that. Fill us in. I've been wrong before - many times. The truth is what matters.
You're joking, right?
I'm referring to this: "WE MUST STOP trying to convert each other. And the leaders of our religions should be leading us there."
This really makes me question why you're supposedly a preacher. One of the basic tenants of most faiths is to spread it and convert others to the faith. To ask a Christian, or for that matter a Muslim, to not try and convert people is to say that the faith is dead, meaningless or even worse. Christian's are called to spread the word of Christ to others. Muslim's are told to spread Islam. And as a Christian, it's not their desire to convert, but the methods they sometimes use that are the issue. And it's not like the Church hasn't had some dark history on this one either, but thankfully it has moved beyond those methods.
I disagree, CS. As one who
I disagree, CS. As one who has been through door to door evangelism in the States as well as evangelistic efforts overseas, I can tell you that "trying to convert people" is a remarkably bad idea. It sounds good, I know. It sounds Christian. It sounds like the right response to Matthew 28.
But it also sounds dangerously close to the Crusades. And the Inquisition. And the Spanish "priests" who converted Native Americans on threat of death. And that's just on the "Christian" side of things.
And you hinted at that, but thankfully it has moved beyond those methods.
It has? Is handing out tracts that tell a person they're going to hell really any better? Is the Roman's Road or Evangelism Explosion going to teach people to love God? Fear is still the primary motivator. If a man is taught only to fear, that fear will turn to hate, and how can anyone love a God he hates?
There is also the fallacy that we have any right or power to claim a person's soul. We cannot convert people. That requires a change of heart, which only God can accomplish, and even then, only with that person's cooperation!
All we can do, really, is look to our own salvation and make ourselves available to walk with others who are ready to ask questions and wrestle with answers that are sometimes rather difficult. Does this mean we don't spread the Gospel? No, of course not. But it does mean we must be able to discern who really wants to hear and not force things on anyone.
They wouldn't let me take communion
He baptized a muslim? Heck, last time I went to a Catholic church they wouldn't let me take communion because I'm protestant. Go figure.
Go easy on the Catholics though, they do lots of good stuff. Doesn't excuse the bad, but . . . still, lots of good people out there.
Different ships, you know.
Again, I'm angry at the
Again, I'm angry at the pope. Not Catholics in general. I reserve the right to point out what I consider to be bad behavior by world religious figures, particularly since I myself am a part of the pope's greater faith community.
You tell it, Preach. I am
You tell it, Preach. I am with you; everyone has a right to their opinions.
I can understand, and be
I can understand, and be offended by this thread from multiple perspectives!
For one thing, as a former RC, I know how hard it is to be tolerant of Protestants making anti-Catholic remarks. Somehow we take that kind of thing personally, perhaps because the overwhelming majority of anti-Catholic opinions bandied about are based on incorrect information. In this case, while it appears you have your facts straight, Gordon, the tone is guaranteed to raise Catholic hackles. (Even those such as mine that ought to be over all that by now.)
On the other hand, you are right, I think, to be offended, outraged even, by what Papa Ratzinger did on Easter! Keep in mind, he was the Grand Inquisitor who led the pogrom on Catholic theologians in an effort to roll back the changes brought about by Vatical II. I watched his elevation to Pope with something like horror, and have been a little surprised by the lack of aggression in his papacy. He showed his true colors this weekend. Everyone should be rising up in howls of protest. I haven't really heard much protest, other than yours. It may have offended me, but I think you're right.
It is one thing for any church to hold open its doors to refugees from other places. People who wish to convert privately for their own reasons should never be turned away from a church. For a church to use an individual conversion as an opportunity to publicly thumb the Papal schnozola at all ecumenical Catholics of good will who work with people of other faiths in their day-to-day lives, not to mention dissing all people of other faiths, especially Muslims..... well, there is absolutely no justification for that.
In this case, despite any potential offense it might give to Catholics, I think Protest is definitely in order. At least you are protesting based on actual facts about something that matters.
NewInWonderland (fka ITW)
http://newinwonderland.blogspot.com/
Pope baptizes
Gordon, your indignation over the public nature and timing of the baptism is a worthy comment. I appreciate you responding so clearly to a troubling news piece which, somehow, I missed. I also appreciate the point of view of those who speak on behalf of his baptism. Surely as Christians we must give thanks for the new reality of faith in Christ in his life. I am troubled, however, by your ridicule of the Office of Pope. Agree or disagree, but comments like, "pope John or Leo or Bene...or Benny, Steve,whatever his name is" or "pope hat and little pope slippers" and "his lips move. I wonder if anything else does." strike me as troubling, even adolescent. You are in a strongly Roman Catholic city and your blog is read, as you know, across the world, and most certainly in San Antonio. Please express your outrage as you certainly have the right to do. But remain respectful also. Far too much energy has been put into Protestant/Catholic dialogue and yes, Baptist/Catholic dialogue to leave Catholics with this impression of what Baptist Protestants think of the Office.
I agree that I went a little
I agree that I went a little too far with that. My intent, which I expressed in a follow-up piece, was more like a political cartoon. I mean to highlight what may be the growing irrelevancy of the pope. But I wrote it that way, so I suppose I'll leave it online.
But point well taken. I wish I had done it without those little touches.
i was going to say something but...
now i wont say that - after reading the comments
what i will say is to agree with some points and disagree with some points.
Agree - good that the chap converted and had the guts to do it on international tv - despite the death threats
Agree with gordon that the pope is crazy to do this considering the whole current climate and osamas recent comments
Agree with Roger re the disrespect of the pope - regardless of our opinions of him we should still respect him as a human - however can see that it was meant as lampooning cartoonesque picture and not adolescent in my opinion and there is nothing wrong in that.
Disagree with all catholic v protestant comments - there is a major difference between the viewpoints and while don't agree that that should cause us to fight over them - eg Ireland, Spain, inquisition etc, i think that either side should be able to expound their views without fear of ridicule and also enjoy the right to follow their chosen path
Disagree that Gordon did anything wrong here - hes entitled to his opinion and his way of saying it. I am pleased that most of the comments have been polite.
Ech thats enough.
i just think the pope is crazy - agree with Cat that they should all go live in the real world for a bit. same applies to fundamental zealots and muslim fanatics as well
Not fanning the flames
I think what the Pope was doing was a demonstration of how the Catholic Church will welcome anyone who believes in and desires to be part of the Church, even a Muslim. I definitely don't see it as "fanning the flames" of religious anger. Those Muslims that will be angry about it will be angry about anything having to do with Christianity. Heck they don't even need an excuse to be angry. They just are.
Having said that, I must say that your portrayal of the Holy Father was childish and disrespectful. Would you mock any other faith's spiritual leader in that way? Then why mock mine?
"Growing irrelevancy of the
"Growing irrelevancy of the papacy?" Really?
Gordon, I think you've gone too far with this one. Having grown up in the church, I never realized how much ignorance abounded about the Catholic church until I entered college. It's been a bedrock for me as I actually, for lack of a less perfect metaphor, take up the cross of Christianity. I've read how you don't mean it as anti-Catholic, and, like every other Catholic joke I hear, I'll just nod and smile and hold back the bile in my throat and say it's okay. I know you don't mean to inflict harm, so even though it hurts me, I forgive you. Maybe you don't even want it, or need it. I don't know. But that's done and over.
My next thought... You say that "WE MUST STOP trying to convert each other." Again, really? I'm not saying that we should damn and condemn each other because we don't, but why *shouldn't* we shout from the mountaintop our joy that we've found in the Lord, and want others to do the same with us? Shouldn't part of our calling be to spread the love of Christ, the *fellowship* of the Holy Spirit, with as many people as possible? I don't mean numbers, Gordon - I read your essay about the evangelization experience, and it made me as sick as I'm sure you felt. But what about consenting, intelligent people who yearn for that *something* that we can't even explain? How long has it been since you've wanted to share that? When did you last feel it?
I hope I'm not too forward, or offensive, or anything other than truthful. I'll admit I'm as ignorant as the next person, even more so when it comes to Christianity, so maybe I don't get it. But to hear you decry your own faith, your own bedrock, for the sake of an earthly peace... it just screams hypocrisy. Maybe it is "Old World" to place trust in something beyond this world, something beyond our own lives, but... hell, Gordon. If that's not Christianity, I don't know what is. I didn't become one to stay safe and warm, that's for sure. And neither did this man.
"My next thought... You say
"My next thought... You say that "WE MUST STOP trying to convert each other." Again, really? I'm not saying that we should damn and condemn each other because we don't, but why *shouldn't* we shout from the mountaintop our joy that we've found in the Lord, and want others to do the same with us?"
John, I think you miss a salient point, like many Christians from evangelical traditions.
You absolutely have the right to shout from the mountaintop -- but while you're shouting, remember that it's less likely to win over hearts than if you quietly and joyfully went about your life and let your peace and loving ways speak for you until they're intrigued enough to approach you and ask.
"He that blesseth his neighbour with a loud voice, rising early in the morning, it shall be counted a curse to him" -- doing an obnoxious thing in the name of piety doesn't bring you (or your neighbour) blessings. If you're *irritating* the intended recipients, are you really being true to the core principles of your faith? I'm sure that Gordon would be the last person to say "don't talk about Christ," but there's a difference between talking about your faith and setting out to convert someone.
Cairsten, I appreciate your
Cairsten, I appreciate your comment. And just for clarification's sake, I haven't been brought up in an evangelical tradition. I'm RC through and through, baby. ;)
I agree with you wholeheartedly - a huge facet of my life comes from the words of St. Francis of Assissi: "Preach the Gospel daily, and, when necessary, use words." It's only recently that I've been exposed to the blatant "numbers" evangelization that happens, and to me that does miss the entire basis of Christianity.
I think that the Church did nothing wrong here - I think the man was blessed and honored to be baptized by the pope at Easter vigil, in public. It's not like he did this against his will. He was elated, excited, happy to become Christian, moreso than he was to stay apathetic. I wouldn't say this is grandstanding for piety's sake, and I think it's very cynical for someone to only see public ritual as a political tool. That's what I see when I read this.
He was, of course, trying to
He was, of course, trying to start a fight. And no, it's not difficult yo do that, but the Pope was clearly trying to provoke an angry response from Muslims.
I'm guessing that he wants an angry response form Muslims. People here can say "who cares what those crazy Muslims think", and that's an answer. They agree that picking a fight is a good thing. They *want* a fight. Probably a knock down drag out fight where we how those heathens what for.
Peacemaking is expensive, annoying, and it means dealing with assholes without pushing their face in. It's far easier, and more satisfying to push the other guy into a figh, and then beat the crap out of him.
The guy wanted to be converted? Fine. Convert him. But be aware that he's a public figure who's called Islam evil. Frequrntly. In public. Giving him a papal baptism on Easter is a statement of approval in the eyes of th Islamic world, and it will fan the flames of anger.
You have to want that anger, and be trying to create more anger to do what the Pope did.
I think, in his heart, the Pope views Islam as evil, and wants to start a fight with it. I think Gordon might agree with at least the last part of my statement.
I don't really think you can
I don't really think you can know another man's heart. I believe many are deceived by the pope's outward appearance and believe him to be cynical, baseless, even evil.
Read "Deus Caritas Est." Read "Spe Salve." Tell me that man cares about the politics of the world, and I'll just sit here and laugh.
Magdi Christian Allam chose
Magdi Christian Allam chose to be baptized by the Pope. He asked for the privilege. No one dragged him out into the glare of the cameras. To say that this was staged by the Pope is to completely disregard Mr. Allam's choice. As a prominent writer, as an intelligent man, he knew exactly what he was doing. He has said that he wanted to set an example for other converts who have remained in hiding for fear of what fanatical muslims would do to them, to encourage them to stand up publicly for their faith and against violence. You talk about not fanning the flames of violence, but what about standing up to injustice? That is what Mr. Allam has done by asking to be publicly baptized by the Pope. To quote Martin Luther, "Here I stand; I can do no other." Rather than using this as an opportunity to bash the Pope, I would suggest that we praise Mr. Allam's bravery.
Martin Luther started an
Martin Luther started an awful lot of wars. If he's your role model, then starting a war really is what's intended.
Peacemaking is tough. Starting wars is easy. If you want the Pope to try starting wars, he can continue as he has. Peacemaking is more work and tolerance than I think he's interested in.
Is Mr. Allam brave? Yes. But is he a peacemaker? No.
"Do not think that I came to
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." --Matthew 10:34-39
Dwell on this for a while. I have a hard time understanding it myself, but I think it may be key.
Pope Benedict
I had much more respect John Paul II. He seemed to me much more aware that he was a head of state as well as a religious leader. Benedict allows himself to behave just as he did in his previous role as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
I've come here by way of
I've come here by way of Brutally Honest. I, too, am a "real live preacher" (Methodist) and while anti-catholic sentiment is not the point of your post, it certainly is the tone. It's like using the N-word and then saying "Don't accuse me of prejudice. That wasn't my point!" You criticize the Pope for offending Muslims because they will start burning down churches, but it seems OK to offend Catholics because, what, they won't?
All the talk about militant evangelism is way off point. The man accepted Christ and was baptized. You think they should have done it quietly because others will be offended. So, the terrorists win. Do what they want or they'll cut off your head. I think the convert, the Pope, and the church should be commended for their courage.
And Cairsten's implication that Christian baptism is "doing an obnoxious thing in the name of piety" reveals a very dark heart.
I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell
I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you that a liberal apostate preacher would have a problem with a public profession of Christian faith by a former Muslim. No, no, keep your light hidden, we wouldn't want to make anybody MAD. Somebody might get HURT. And isn't being nice what faith is all about anyway? So let's all be nice and have a group hug, because it's easy to compromise what you believe when you don't believe anything in the first place.
I am a Christian minister
I am a Christian minister working in a non-Christian church so I come at this from a unique quirky expereince. But what I find upsetting about some of my Christian sisters and brothers is how easily we can become imperialistic in our faith without ever realizing it. When someone is baptized in public (as most baptisms are) it is never a "private event" and when one is baptized in public and that baptism is planned to be viewed internationally it is not a public event and it is very political. In this instance the Pope used a sacramental moment to further a non-sacramental agenda. I am saddened and I pray for the Pope and for all of christendom.
your post
I am a high-church Episcopalian married to a Roman Catholic. So you and I are on the opposite sides of the liturgical spectrum, if not necessarily the theological one. And I am also a fan of the current Pope. Did I also mention that I was raised in the Baptist tradition? So I kind of know where you are coming from.
I think that people are angry with your bit of satire because you have such a broad brush. Many of us can see your point about baptism being used as a challenge to radical Islam, but to take on so many of the traditions of the church at the same time, well, that is a lot.
But, on the other hand, I am glad to see that some of that Baptist fire is still in you, despite your mainstream leanings. The church needs its critics, so don't let all this get you down.
Wow, I've just finished
Wow, I've just finished reading all the comments and don't really know what to think. I'm all over the board on this one.
As one of those "crazy Episcopalians" who is currently doing third year EFM (Education for Ministry dealing with Church history) study; I can find support and justification for most every opinion espoused from all sides. It's interesting that we are currently working on the European Reformation.
What "popped" into my mind; however, is our (TEC) denomination's current strife on issues of human sexuality. I'm not totally sure where I stand on that subject either. As such I wonder what all y'alls position would be if it was about Ordaining a gay Bishop instead of the Pope baptizing a Muslim. For it seems to me a similar issue though possibly not of the same magnitude.
The Pope brings a
The Pope brings a non-practicing Muslim into the Christian faith by Baptising him and you are angry because it might fan the flames of hate. Well where was your anger when the Chaldean Catholic archbishop of Mosul who was kidnapped in Iraq last month was found dead on March 13th, killed by Muslims his body half-buried in an empty lot in the northern city of Mosul.
I don't understand how you could see the pope's actions as hateful in light of Scripture. Jesus did his actions in front of all, he didn't say I cannot heal because it might offend. He did what he did to the Glory of God.
I am not a Catholic but I must say shame on you for making fun of the pope and his name. That was very unChristian behavior at it's best and down right hateful at it's worst. For that alone you owe Catholics who read this an apology.
I'm outraged and saddened by
I'm outraged and saddened by all acts of violence. And whatever apologies I need to make I have made. But hear me. Only small minds respond to wrong by pointing to previous wrongs. As if we should not be outraged by a wrong because we were not outraged by another wrong that we might not have heard about.
This is the method of bigotry. This is the method of people who want to respond to evil with evil. This is the method of "an eye for an eye."
What I have said, I have said. The pope is within my family of Christianity so I speak to him and us. I can't speak as well to other religious traditions. You won't see me calling out Muslims.
They have their sins to answer for, as we all know.
What!?! :D
Mr Preacher
They don't see people getting hurt. They just see you opposing their God. I'm not christian, and if people wonder why I'll just show them the comments you got on this page. But that doesn't stop me from finding your faith, and you blog beautiful. You're a great man Gordon, and as long as i've read RLP, you've always been someone I've respected and admired.
If i just happened to be christian, if i had to do what i felt was right, i'd agree with you anyway. never be afraid to poke fun at what is wrong in this world, you were the better man, most of all becoz you apologised for beign right.
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